Cleaning Up: Leadership in an Age of Climate Change

Professor Ning Li has spent decades at the intersection of energy, technology and industrial strategy. A nuclear engineer, complexity scientist and founding Dean of the School of Energy at Xiamen University, he is also credited with coining the term "Small Modular Reactor" nearly 20 years ago.

In this wide-ranging conversation with Bryony Worthington, Ning Li explains why China has weathered recent global energy shocks better than many expected, how electrification is transforming economic resilience, and why solar panels, batteries and electric vehicles have become China's most important exports.

They explore whether the world is really swapping dependence on fossil fuels for dependence on Chinese electrotech, why modularity has become the defining feature of successful modern technologies, and what lessons other countries can learn from China's rapid industrial scaling.

The discussion also covers the future of nuclear power, the role of coal in supporting China's grid, the untapped potential of heat pumps, and why the energy transition should be framed not as a burden, but as an opportunity for growth.

Topics include:

Why China has been relatively resilient to oil and gas disruptions

The rise of the "electrostate"

China's new energy exports: EVs, batteries and solar

Why modular technologies scale faster

The origins of the Small Modular Reactor concept

The changing role of coal in China's power system

Heat pumps and industrial electrification

Nuclear power's future in China

Climate action as economic development

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

Links:

Ning Li bio: https://thebreakthrough.org/people/ning-li

Octopus’ Fiona Howarth on the EV partnership with BYD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL64XW5ZRBA

Today, wind power accounts for just under 10% of all electricity globally, around the same as solar, recently overtaking nuclear power. 20 years ago, the figure was under 1%.

In that time, the sector’s leadership has moved around from Europe to the US to Asia, but one specialist European manufacturer has stayed in the leading group throughout: Vestas — a member of the global wind energy aristocracy.

This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich is joined by Henrik Andersen, CEO of Vestas, to discuss the extraordinary growth in the wind energy industry, the challenges it faces with rising interest rates and political hostility, and where the best place to build turbines is in 2026. 

Together they do some myth-busting and answer:

If wind is so great, why does it need subsidies? 

Is wind pointless because it’s intermittent?

Are turbines killing all the birds?

What happens to the turbines at the end of their lives?

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

Links:

Vestas’ website: https://www.vestas.com/en/pages/campaigns/sustainability/200-gw

Henrik Andersen’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/henrik-andersen-/

WindEurope 2026: From crisis to confidence — https://windeurope.org/news/windeurope-2026-from-crisis-to-confidence/

For more than 15 years, the RCP8.5 climate scenario has shaped headlines, policy decisions, financial stress tests and public understanding of climate risk. Now, the scientific community has declared it implausible. So what comes next?

This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich welcomes Professor Roger Pielke Jr. back to explore why RCP 8.5 became the dominant "business as usual" climate scenario, and what its demise means for climate research, policymaking and public debate.

They discuss the origins of the scenario, how assumptions about coal consumption drove projections beyond plausible futures and ask whether fear-based climate communication has ultimately helped or hindered public support for climate action. They tackle tipping points, extreme weather, climate policy, scientific self-correction, and the crucial question of how societies should respond to climate risk in a world that is still warming.

Until recently, Roger was a tenured professor at the University of Colorado at Boulder. He is now senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and publishes an influential Substack called The Honest Broker. He last made an appearance on Cleaning Up in June 2022. If you want to know the background to the RCP8.5 controversy you should listen to that episode, linked below.

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

Links:

Van Vuuren’s 2026 paper on RCP8.5 becoming implausible: https://gmd.copernicus.org/articles/19/2627/2026/

Van Vuuren’s 2011 paper on the development of the Representative Concentration Pathways (RCPs): https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10584-011-0148-z

The Honest Broker Substack: https://rogerpielkejr.substack.com/

Michael's writeup on RCP8.5: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/rcp-85-is-officially-bollox

Roger Pielke Jr’s past appearance on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2LpMpkrP1w

Johan Rockström on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/eIJkt_mY12s

Jim Skea on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/oAWUdL5ZKsk

As electricity demand rises and renewable generation continues to expand, the same question keeps arising: how do we keep power systems reliable, affordable and resilient?

This week, Michael Liebreich is joined by Håkan Agnevall, CEO of Wärtsilä, to discuss the changing role of flexible generation in modern electricity systems, the growing importance of grid stability, and why balancing technologies will be critical as renewables become an ever-larger share of the global energy mix.

They explore how rapidly growing electricity demand, including from data centres, is reshaping investment decisions, why flexible gas generation may play an important transitional role, and how batteries, renewables and thermal assets can work together to build a more resilient power system.

The conversation also examines the future of shipping decarbonisation following delays to the International Maritime Organisation’s proposed global carbon-pricing mechanism, the importance of fuel flexibility for vessel owners, and how digital technologies and AI are improving efficiency across industry.

Håkan and Michael cover a wide variety of topics, including:

Why flexible generation remains essential in renewable-heavy grids

How growing electricity demand is changing energy infrastructure planning

The role of gas engines, batteries and storage in maintaining grid stability

What data centres mean for future power systems

Shipping decarbonisation and the IMO's delayed carbon-pricing vote

Fuel flexibility and efficiency in maritime transport

How industrial companies are using AI to improve performance and reliability

Energy security, competitiveness and the changing geopolitical landscape

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

Links:

Wärtsilä's website: https://www.wartsila.com/

Episode 208 with Anders Lindberg, Wärtsilä's head of energy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtsCCJ4o1WA

Episode 229 with Professor Tristan Smith of UCL, on the delayed IMO agreement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUCidkeDto

Episode 235 with Rob Dunn, inside the Start Campus data centre: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAyLAUmU3w

In this special episode of Cleaning Up from San Francisco Climate Week, Michael Liebreich and Bryony Worthington unpack the geopolitical shocks reshaping the global energy transition.

From escalating tensions in the Gulf and their impact on oil and LNG markets, to China’s accelerating electrification revolution, the conversation explores how energy security, industrial strategy and climate ambition are colliding in real time.

Bryony and Michael debate whether the West can realistically compete with China’s manufacturing dominance, why electrification is becoming the defining energy strategy across Europe and Asia, and whether hydrogen has any meaningful role left to play. They also examine California’s energy paradox, the future of AI-driven electricity demand, and whether nuclear power can help meet the coming compute boom.

Along the way, they tackle the politics of trade, the economics of resilience, the rise of clean tech nationalism, and the uncomfortable societal questions posed by artificial intelligence and automation.

This episode covers:

The energy implications of instability in the Middle East

Why electrification is accelerating globally

China’s EV and battery dominance

The future of LNG, coal and renewables in Asia

 Why Michael thinks hydrogen is dead policy walking

AI, data centres and the coming electricity crunch

California’s clean energy transformation

Whether nuclear power can support the AI revolution

Leadership Circle:

Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live

Links:

Absolutely Electrifying - Ep158: Saul Griffith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=238XVTF4ang

How Nvidia Made Chips 100,000x More Efficient | Ep215: Josh Parker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0KtA9WKZ3U

The Future of Clean Tech Under Trump — Ep198: Jigar Shah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOaF-qQ_TU