In the Shadows of Utopia: The Khmer Rouge and the Cambodian Nightmare

 Check out my visit to M13 at YouTube or https://www.patreon.com/ Time Period Covered: 1971 - 1972 Why would someone join the Khmer Rouge? How would people view the parts of the country that were now being run by the communists? What was M13 and why is it so important? In this episode, Lachlan returns to discuss one of the most invaluable insights into the proto-type regime of Democratic Kampuchea and the countryside control of the Khmer Rouge. Ith Sarin's Regrets for the Khmer Soul, a detailed account of life under the communists for nine months which wasn't as damning as some might think. This is in sharp contrast to another memoir of life under the regime recalled from this very same time period, the account of Francois Bizot's The Gate, in which he explains his time imprisoned at M13, the jungle-based prototype of Tuol Sleng. Woven through these two sides of the story is the evolution of the Khmer Rouge into a group taking over the functions of running a state, and employing the blueprint of revolution they had decided upon on the Cambodian population they controlled -- which numbered in the millions. Sources: David Chandler The Tragedy of Cambodian History Philip Short Pol Pot Ith Sarin Regrets for the Khmer Soul (available at https://www.mekongriverpress.com/) Francois Bizot The Gate ECCC Testimony Kang Gek Iev (Duch) Henri Locard Jungle Heart of the Khmer Rouge Norodom Sihanouk My War with the CIA Ben Kiernan How Pol Pot Came to Power Sophal Ear The Khmer Rouge Cannon (Phd Thesis) Ian Harris Buddhism Under Pol Pot Alex Hinton Why Did They Kill? 

This episode is a follow-up to the two-hour discussion I had with historian Henri Locard. The video of that full conversation is available for free on Patreon right here (or just go to https://www.patreon.com/shadowsofutopia) - no sign up required. Henri Locard is a prominent scholar of the Khmer Rouge, he testified as an expert witness at the ECCC, and has written extensively on the subject. Most notably Pol Pot's Little Red Book, a collection of the slogans used by the Khmer Rouge, and most recently, Jungle Heart of the Khmer Rouge, a biography of Phi Phuon, Pol Pot's Jarai bodyguard. He also has an upcoming book about the extent of the Khmer Rouge prison system that he is looking to find a publisher for. Unlike last time, in our 'discussion', the focus is tighter. I ask Henri four main questions, particularly the ones that we hadn't got to last time, and while he still drifts a little in his answers (as he does), this is a more concentrated exchange that digs deep into how he sees Cambodia’s past and present. We talk about the meaning of the “Super Great Leap Forward,” the myths of the so-called “hydraulic city” and how they shaped Khmer Rouge policy, the true extent of the regime’s prison system (which Henri argues was more than three times what the ECCC has documented), and finally, what he believes is the single best book written about the Khmer Rouge. Henri has a habit of challenging accepted ideas about Cambodian history, but not in the revisionist way of minimizing the regime’s crimes. He re-examines long-held assumptions, particularly about just how widespread the brutality of the Khmer Rouge was. What makes his perspective powerful is his deep, lived connection to the country, and his long study of how the Khmer Rouge prison network worked.  And as you’ll hear, the conversation begins in one place, loops back around, and then veers in an unexpected direction by the end.

You've seen The Killing Fields, you probably know that Haing Ngor, who played Dith Pran in the film won an oscar. You might also know that he was murdered in Los Angeles. But the version of that story you've known for years... isn't true. Patricia Nunan, or MP, is a veteran journalist who has worked for a variety of well regarded institutions. She is now tackling the murder of Haing Ngo - completely challenging the narrative that I had assumed was completely sorted since the late 90's. I urge you to subsribe to Who Killed Haing Ngor -  Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1tKU5RgGYYrw71iGj7Q9s4 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/who-killed-haing-ngor/id1674928262 Website: https://www.whokilledhaingngor.com/ Instagram: who_killed_haing_ngor

Watch my full walk around and visit to this terrible site (for free!) at https://www.patreon.com/posts/visiting-s21-of-140518814 AGAIN. If you find yourself halfway through that 20 minute preamble, just click the bloody link and watch me investigate a site that no one ever sees. FOR FREE. NO SIGN UPS. JUST CLICK THE BLOODY LINK. Please excuse my indulgent preamble, and its emotion. But you can skip all that by just watching the video at the link above (again FOR FREE). I’ve just released a new video filmed at Krang Ta Chan, the main Khmer Rouge prison of the Southwest Zone. It’s a quiet place today. Rice fields, birds, a small museum. But during the 1970s it was one of the most active execution sites in Cambodia. Thousands of people were killed here under the authority of Ta Mok, the man who ruled this region with an iron grip. This video walks through the site as it looks now, using maps, archival material, and testimonies from the Khmer Rouge Tribunal to piece together how it worked, who was sent here, what life and death were like inside the compound, and what still remains today. It’s one of the most sobering things I’ve ever filmed. But I think it’s important to show these places as they are, to remember what happened, and to understand how people and landscapes still carry that memory.

This is an episode that could be listened to if you’d like, or if you’d prefer to watch it (without ads!) then head to https://patreon.com/shadowsofutopia and watch it for free, no sign ups, no obligations. It's a nice pleasant video, and just one click away. In this bonus episode, I sit down to go through and explain an interview I recently conducted with an ex-Khmer Rouge doctor, who we will refer to as ‘uncle’.  He lived through the events that we have been covering so extensively in the last few episodes of the podcast, the start of the war, Sihanouk’s call for his people to join the resistance against Lon Nol, the Vietnamese communists fighting in Cambodia, and training to become a Khmer Rouge doctor in their primary hospital during the civil war - and then going on to be become a surgeon in Phnom Penh during the regime’s time in power. While he obviously has certain biases, and beliefs, about what the Khmer Rouge were, what went wrong, and why… This is still a fascinating piece of history to contend with. Hearing from the Khmer Rouge themselves about what they felt they were trying to accomplish, as well as his own thoughts about communism, and that he felt that nothing was going wrong in the country - until 1977. He did not blame Pol Pot, but, like many Khmer Rouge, he instead blamed ‘factions’, bad actors, saboteurs, and those who were colluding with the Vietnamese. We get a very one sided view of the story here, and I put it into context for you, and challenge the views that this Khmer Rouge doctor had come to believe about their war, their time in power, and who was really responsible for what happened. I must extend a deep gratitude to Chhay Lim, who organised this trip, and organised contacts for me to be able to speak with.